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	<title>Comments on: #160 - Out Of Line</title>
	<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/</link>
	<description>A comic about relationships in Sweden.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Kate</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7316</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7316</guid>
					<description>@ berga: I knew what you meant by 'true-blue.' As my grampy would say, I was just 'making a funny.' ;D Sorry for being unclear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ berga: I knew what you meant by &#8216;true-blue.&#8217; As my grampy would say, I was just &#8216;making a funny.&#8217; ;D Sorry for being unclear.
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		<title>by: Kiersi</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7296</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7296</guid>
					<description>@Cherie: I just mean the presumptuous doctor woman--see the scene where she is getting an ultrasound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Cherie: I just mean the presumptuous doctor woman&#8211;see the scene where she is getting an ultrasound.
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		<title>by: Olentzero</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7287</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7287</guid>
					<description>That having been said, Rene as the artist is really under no obligation to justify the sexual content of this strip to anyone except herself. Kudos to her for taking the time to respond to it (she's got Principles One, Six, and Seven down nicely here - read 'em at http://filthspigot.livejournal.com/12100.html ) but I would hardly blame her if she had also said (nicely) "This is my comic and I will write it as I please, thanks for writing!"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That having been said, Rene as the artist is really under no obligation to justify the sexual content of this strip to anyone except herself. Kudos to her for taking the time to respond to it (she&#8217;s got Principles One, Six, and Seven down nicely here - read &#8216;em at <a href='http://filthspigot.livejournal.com/12100.html' rel='nofollow'>http://filthspigot.livejournal.com/12100.html</a> ) but I would hardly blame her if she had also said (nicely) &#8220;This is my comic and I will write it as I please, thanks for writing!&#8221;
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		<title>by: SuitCase</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7278</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7278</guid>
					<description>I'm very impressed by Withing, and I can't help but agree with Olentzero (somewhat.) 

I don't think the problems are severe enough to damn the comic, but for people coming to the comic with certain preconceptions and inclinations to see rampant sex as something that you have to really justify (i.e. me) they can be something of an issue. Either Rene can choose to push on in the way she has been and disregard people thinking like me, or she can do the "rebalancing" I'm suggesting - either is her choice, but I think it's best to be informed about the sort of reactions your readers are having even if it's a critical one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very impressed by Withing, and I can&#8217;t help but agree with Olentzero (somewhat.) </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the problems are severe enough to damn the comic, but for people coming to the comic with certain preconceptions and inclinations to see rampant sex as something that you have to really justify (i.e. me) they can be something of an issue. Either Rene can choose to push on in the way she has been and disregard people thinking like me, or she can do the &#8220;rebalancing&#8221; I&#8217;m suggesting - either is her choice, but I think it&#8217;s best to be informed about the sort of reactions your readers are having even if it&#8217;s a critical one.
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		<title>by: Withing</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7275</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7275</guid>
					<description>Obviously, this is Rene's domain, and it is her unique vision and the skill with which she's brought it to life that brings us here in the first place, and makes us care enough to comment. 

Saying, "I love the relationship between the characters, the art style, and everything! Don't ever change it!" or "I think its a good comic that could be even better if you changed X, Y and Z." both express the idea that "I have been touched by your work, and now have hopes for its future." (And both those hopes can be equally stultifying and contrary to the artists wishes or the good of the storyline.)

 Always yes or always no = always bad. And besides, all the twists that have made this so engaging have been major disturbances of the status quo. Few things help you organize and find the truth of your ideas like trying to explain them to someone else. If you say, "Just go ahead and do whatever it is you were going to do anyway," you've been very careful not to take anything away from the artist, but you haven't given them anything they can use, either.  And seeing how your work is received and interpreted by people who are filtering what they see through their various backgrounds, and their preconceptions of what a thing should be (or seems to them like it's trying to be) I would think is half the fun. 

(And for what it's worth, I wandered in here from Lore's place and became an instant fn. Great stuff, Rene.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, this is Rene&#8217;s domain, and it is her unique vision and the skill with which she&#8217;s brought it to life that brings us here in the first place, and makes us care enough to comment. </p>
<p>Saying, &#8220;I love the relationship between the characters, the art style, and everything! Don&#8217;t ever change it!&#8221; or &#8220;I think its a good comic that could be even better if you changed X, Y and Z.&#8221; both express the idea that &#8220;I have been touched by your work, and now have hopes for its future.&#8221; (And both those hopes can be equally stultifying and contrary to the artists wishes or the good of the storyline.)</p>
<p> Always yes or always no = always bad. And besides, all the twists that have made this so engaging have been major disturbances of the status quo. Few things help you organize and find the truth of your ideas like trying to explain them to someone else. If you say, &#8220;Just go ahead and do whatever it is you were going to do anyway,&#8221; you&#8217;ve been very careful not to take anything away from the artist, but you haven&#8217;t given them anything they can use, either.  And seeing how your work is received and interpreted by people who are filtering what they see through their various backgrounds, and their preconceptions of what a thing should be (or seems to them like it&#8217;s trying to be) I would think is half the fun. </p>
<p>(And for what it&#8217;s worth, I wandered in here from Lore&#8217;s place and became an instant fn. Great stuff, Rene.)
</p>
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		<title>by: Amy</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7268</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7268</guid>
					<description>Aargh.  For what it's worth, my last post got cut off.  Yeah, it started off kind of angry, but was meant to end like this:

The only one who is entitled to have this comic be the way they want it to be is Rene, the author.

Rene, if you feel that you should change your comic to include less sex, then feel free.  But there is nothing *wrong* with your comic the way it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aargh.  For what it&#8217;s worth, my last post got cut off.  Yeah, it started off kind of angry, but was meant to end like this:</p>
<p>The only one who is entitled to have this comic be the way they want it to be is Rene, the author.</p>
<p>Rene, if you feel that you should change your comic to include less sex, then feel free.  But there is nothing *wrong* with your comic the way it is.
</p>
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		<title>by: Withing</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7256</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7256</guid>
					<description>Agreed, Olentzero. While Suitcase's take on the strip has some vocal opponents, he's for the most part maintained level-headed, reasoned arguments, without letting the nets combination of anonymity and large audience tempt him into showboating by making his critiques and responses unnecessarily harsh. 

As far as using nudity and sex for the 'edgy, look what I have the guts to do' factor, I had a similar reaction watching high school kids at open-mic poetry readings. Poems often had 'fuck' in them for artistic reasons. Not reasons of rhyme, rhythm or authenticity, but more for the 'performance art' aspect of getting up in front of a fairly genteel crowd and daring to say it into an amplified microphone. But I'm not getting that vibe with ALM.

From a stylistic standpoint, in a strip that has continuity from day to day, if it gets to be so its all about the boinking (or even gets where it is perceived that way), its important to have feedback like Suitcase gives so the artist can at least weigh and consider it (as it seems Rene is admirably willing to do). 

Sometimes there's a reason for, say, all the car chases and explosions in a movie to happen in the first 5 minutes, and it's part of the overall vision, has a strong purpose, and the tale can be told no other way. But sometimes, when asked if that sensory barrage might leave the viewer confused and overwhelmed, an artist realizes that, perhaps by inserting a love scene between two of the explosions, and leaving a little to the imagination, the impact of all three events might be heightened. 

So, having just read the entire run from end to end in one setting, I do agree that the number of strips involving people making flippy-floppy does seem to have increased a fair bit. But the standout characteristic for me has been the almost Memento-like way my perception of who these characters are, what their motivation is, and what's about to happen has changed from strip to strip, sometimes from panel to panel, and their sexual choices and behavior have certainly been an integral part in portraying those changes.

(And incidentally, the comment about vagina-mouth on the Mario painting was spot-on...popular icon plus sexually-charged imagery equalling automatic avant-garde remains a pillar of the art-school experience, 40 years after Warhol got bored with it.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, Olentzero. While Suitcase&#8217;s take on the strip has some vocal opponents, he&#8217;s for the most part maintained level-headed, reasoned arguments, without letting the nets combination of anonymity and large audience tempt him into showboating by making his critiques and responses unnecessarily harsh. </p>
<p>As far as using nudity and sex for the &#8216;edgy, look what I have the guts to do&#8217; factor, I had a similar reaction watching high school kids at open-mic poetry readings. Poems often had &#8216;fuck&#8217; in them for artistic reasons. Not reasons of rhyme, rhythm or authenticity, but more for the &#8216;performance art&#8217; aspect of getting up in front of a fairly genteel crowd and daring to say it into an amplified microphone. But I&#8217;m not getting that vibe with ALM.</p>
<p>From a stylistic standpoint, in a strip that has continuity from day to day, if it gets to be so its all about the boinking (or even gets where it is perceived that way), its important to have feedback like Suitcase gives so the artist can at least weigh and consider it (as it seems Rene is admirably willing to do). </p>
<p>Sometimes there&#8217;s a reason for, say, all the car chases and explosions in a movie to happen in the first 5 minutes, and it&#8217;s part of the overall vision, has a strong purpose, and the tale can be told no other way. But sometimes, when asked if that sensory barrage might leave the viewer confused and overwhelmed, an artist realizes that, perhaps by inserting a love scene between two of the explosions, and leaving a little to the imagination, the impact of all three events might be heightened. </p>
<p>So, having just read the entire run from end to end in one setting, I do agree that the number of strips involving people making flippy-floppy does seem to have increased a fair bit. But the standout characteristic for me has been the almost Memento-like way my perception of who these characters are, what their motivation is, and what&#8217;s about to happen has changed from strip to strip, sometimes from panel to panel, and their sexual choices and behavior have certainly been an integral part in portraying those changes.</p>
<p>(And incidentally, the comment about vagina-mouth on the Mario painting was spot-on&#8230;popular icon plus sexually-charged imagery equalling automatic avant-garde remains a pillar of the art-school experience, 40 years after Warhol got bored with it.)
</p>
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		<title>by: Olentzero</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7219</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7219</guid>
					<description>I disagree with SuitCase on a number of points, but I gotta give a nod to his demeanor in presenting his arguments. This is all too rare on the Internet.

That having been said, omgwtfbbq u suxx0rz. pwned!

No, wait... I mean - I don't think Rene is veering towards any sort of pretension in the use of sex in this comic. Simply put - what sex she has portrayed here has happened for a reason, either as a back story or to actually move the plot forward. None of the portrayals have been so out of place as to seem like Rene is saying "I've got no idea how to work these details out so I'll just put some fucking in", nor has she attempted to justify its use through some empty blather about the beauty of the human form or rescuing the sexual act from pornography or other similar skitsnack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with SuitCase on a number of points, but I gotta give a nod to his demeanor in presenting his arguments. This is all too rare on the Internet.</p>
<p>That having been said, omgwtfbbq u suxx0rz. pwned!</p>
<p>No, wait&#8230; I mean - I don&#8217;t think Rene is veering towards any sort of pretension in the use of sex in this comic. Simply put - what sex she has portrayed here has happened for a reason, either as a back story or to actually move the plot forward. None of the portrayals have been so out of place as to seem like Rene is saying &#8220;I&#8217;ve got no idea how to work these details out so I&#8217;ll just put some fucking in&#8221;, nor has she attempted to justify its use through some empty blather about the beauty of the human form or rescuing the sexual act from pornography or other similar skitsnack.
</p>
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		<title>by: Taeshi</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7212</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7212</guid>
					<description>AFTER ALL*  Christ I suck.  Into the gutter I go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AFTER ALL*  Christ I suck.  Into the gutter I go.
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		<title>by: Taeshi</title>
		<link>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7211</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/05/29/160-out-of-line/#comment-7211</guid>
					<description>I am, afterwards, the girlfriend he peers over when I obsessively refresh this comic ":-["  (Ohhhhh plot twist)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am, afterwards, the girlfriend he peers over when I obsessively refresh this comic &#8220;:-[&#8221;  (Ohhhhh plot twist)
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