#160 - Out Of Line
Thursday, May 29th, 2008Post! No time to say much else lovies! Have a nice day!
Post! No time to say much else lovies! Have a nice day!
Donate for wallpaper: This lovely wallpaper was made available during the sketch-a-thon. I am making it available again for a limited time. |
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Links:Abominable Charles Christopher, The, Achewood, American Elf, Bellen, Bob The Angry Flower, Cat and Girl, Diesel Sweeties, Dr McNinja, KC Green, Dr Voluptua, Dykes to Watch Out For, Girls With Slingshots, Girly, Grumps, Gunnerkrigg Court, Herman the Manatee, Kinokofry, Kukuburi, Little Gamers, Nedroid, Octopus Pie, Overcompensating, Patches, Perfect Stars, Questionable Content, Raymondo Person, Riotfish, Sam and Fuzzy, Scarygoround, Templar, Ugly Hill, White Ninja, |
May 29th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Just found this yesterday (thanks to my brother) and read the whole thing. So awesome. I’m totally hooked.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Great time to start reading, lol, Welcome BickByro.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
WOW. Wow wow wow wow wow. Can I tell you enough times that I love you, Rene? Your comic makes me happy in my soul.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
GOOD FOR MARIA! presumptuous jerk doctor.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Concussed, pregnant, teenage Maria - she didn’t miss one beat, just got mad as hell.
What a gal!
May 29th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Only just realized what a terrible mom Maria is going to be D:
May 29th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
What kind of crazy hospital is this?
May 29th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Oh, I see, Father… wait did I miss something? Was Maria pregnant twice?
May 29th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Apparently Maria was pregnant twice….now excuse me while I go cry over an imaginary baby that may or may not have come to term.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
I can’t believe how far over my head yesterdays comic went. Too bad for Bjorn, I always kind of pity the guy in unplanned pregnancies because ultimately, nothing his going to be his choice.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Maria has every right to be upset and the doctor had no right: teen motherhood is way too often stigmatized.
I’m not wanting to bring a political debate to the walls of your website so I will stop there and say that I am biting my nails to see what happens next.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Wow .. just, wow.
A single unplanned pregnancy is one thing, but to have been through this before? Regardless of what she chose with the first, birth control should have been a bit higher on her priority list .. sheesh.
Does the Swedish health care system provide free birth control?
May 29th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Apparently Bjorn can be shocked into saying the right thing once in a while — though the “Oh, SHIT!” look is so clearly etched into his face.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
I love you and your brilliant comic! Who needs to study for exams when such fabulous means of procrastination abound?
May 29th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
I don’t see this ending well.
No, this cannot end well.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
@ ben the swedish government provides condoms and such to minors for free, dunno how it is with adults but it’s not like a seven eleven or an ica won’t have some.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
sorry my reply was to mystikalyx not to ben
FAIL
May 29th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
oh wow…i hated bjorn before but now im loving him. he has so far reacted a lot better to maria’s unexpected pregnancy than anders did to the second one.
go bjorn!
May 29th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
I have not liked Bjorn up until this point, but I’m earning a new respect for him with his reaction. So far. We’ll see what happens next.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
well, he says it’s “more than likely” pregnancy, which means that he hasn’t actually administered a test to determine. It’s still possible that she has low blood sugar!
May 29th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
That doc just got pwned!
May 29th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
@MoBurkhardt : Thanks! and, I agree about picking something up in a pharmacy .. just trying to determine whether I should be appalled or horribly appalled at her lack of responsibility (:
May 29th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
I actually liked Bjorn all along.. but i feel like his reaction was more of a “god.. i wish she would get an abortion but now I obviously can’t say that”
Can’t wait to see where this goes.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
He says her dizziness is more than likely *due* to the pregnancy, not that she is more than likely pregnant. I am sure even a presumptuous doc prone to inserting his foot in his mouth would at least have the presence of mind to confirm his patient is pregnant before he asks which young man in the waiting room is the father.
Also @Jello, when did Anders react badly to Maria’s pregnancy? As I recall once he found out he was all smiles and breakfast-cooking. (And boners, but that was more from Maria’s bum than baby…)
May 29th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Agreed, plus Anders was the one who said he wanted to have a baby first.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
I just don’t understand why this wasn’t brought up before.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Im kinda just happy cause I got it right ;D
May 29th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Now I realize what Björn really meant when he said he and Maria were being given a “second chance.”
May 29th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
I love Maria.
This shows that she really is someone who gets things done, even if she can be a little harsh.
I also find the contrast between the dialogue and expression in the last two panels hilarious, especially since Maria looks sooo tiny…
May 30th, 2008 at 12:08 am
I agree with olga, Bjorn looks like he trying to support Maria even though he doesn’t want to go down that road.
May 30th, 2008 at 12:39 am
I just discovered this comic the other day, and I love it. Very good stuff, Rene.
May 30th, 2008 at 1:20 am
Well, there you go. I will no longer make any predictions because they might be happy ones that will go wrong.
May 30th, 2008 at 1:31 am
Coz all the best mothers swear
- Love the comic!
May 30th, 2008 at 1:32 am
Yeeah, Maria! You tell him!
May 30th, 2008 at 2:01 am
oh noes! Holly is right. and it’s friday tomorrow, so we all *know* Rene is going pull a cliffhanger on us!
May 30th, 2008 at 3:41 am
You know for being in college so long, doctors are usually the stupidest people besides message board monkeys.
May 30th, 2008 at 3:50 am
Amazing, I just read from start to here today, please right more soon!
May 30th, 2008 at 4:13 am
if you look at Maria’s eyes through out the panels you can watch them get narrower, and narrower, and narrower, and narr…
May 30th, 2008 at 4:41 am
Me like nice story. Art pretty.
May 30th, 2008 at 5:06 am
Hee.. That doctor looks a little like the Midwife.
Now the ‘It’s almost like we’re getting a second chance.” line makes sense.
May 30th, 2008 at 5:39 am
Man, I want to live in any country that pushes abortion.
Now there’s a free society.
May 30th, 2008 at 6:01 am
i seriously can’t believe any doctor or nurse would say something that thoughtless
for reals.
almost makes me wonder if Maria acted like that out of spite…
May 30th, 2008 at 6:30 am
I’m one of clearly many people who just discovered this comic via Lore Sjoberg and read through the whole archive in one sitting. As I posted on Lore’s blog, I am totally in love with Anders Loves Maria (I also asked if Lore would be best man at the wedding).
Anyway, add mine to the pile of kudos for your terrific work here.
May 30th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Bjorn isn’t really persuading!
Great comic Rene!
May 30th, 2008 at 9:12 am
You tell that nurse-doctor, Maria!
I’m really loving the watercolors as well, Rene.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:18 am
REAL flawd people in REAL difficult situations!!!
This is becoming more and more unrealistic in my eyes “:-[” At least in the perspective of Anders, come to think of it. I mean.. As Felicity mentioned before, just how has this been kept in the dark? I can understand the issue with Tina (for example) and Anders not knowing about it since Maria appears spiteful enough to not mention Tina in passing.. but Maria actually going through teenage pregnancy? Does Anders know absolutely nothing about her? How long have Anders and Maria dated? I mean geez.. I would have assumed losing a child would be.. maybe.. a bit traumatic?
But no matter, I am currently fondling myself to the art. It is glamorous and makes me forget my cynicism “:-[”
May 30th, 2008 at 11:27 am
When was the last time you published a page that wasn’t somehow about sex?
May 30th, 2008 at 11:48 am
heh, this reminded me of the scene in Juno where her stepmum goes to town on the lady doing the ultrasound. Burn.
bjorn in the last panel, a man with enough conviction to move planets. /sarcasm
May 30th, 2008 at 11:49 am
SuitCase: Yesterday?
May 30th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Long time reader, first time poster. Love the comic.
I see this playing out, after the last panel, as a doctor who just jumps to conclusions, firstly with Bjorn and Johaan in the waiting room then assuming she’s want an abortion.
Most likely she fainted for another reason and the doctor assumed pregnancy.
We’ll find she isn’t pregant at all and it will transpire that Bjorn just started to accept it, hense the ’second chance’ in the future.
May be waaaaay off base but i’m putting my two cent out there.
May 30th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
This is for you SuitCase!
May 30th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
I get back from [wherever I was] to see A
May 30th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
I’ve got to be careful here because obviously I run the risk of appearing puritanical by whining constantly about sexual references. I hope you don’t think I’m that shallow. Instead, I’m basically chiming in with the same argument I expressed a while back, in this comment thread: http://anderslovesmaria.reneengstrom.com/2008/03/20/uk-thing-mini-teaser-2/
Essentially, you still seem stuck using sex as an essential method of advancing the narrative of the comic, and I can’t figure out why. When you responded there, I thought to myself “hey maybe this is just some awkward patch, it will change”, but so far it hasn’t! There’s still a sexual reference on pretty much every page - well, maybe an exaggeration, but a third to a half seems like a rough estimate from my browsing of the last 50.
While that’s not bad in of itself, it’s just that whatever effect it may have had at confronting us has now worn off, and now seems.. pointless? I originally viewed it as your tokenistic way of saying “Hey look guys I am fearless and edgy and can draw my characters banging” but now it just seems like an oddly comfortable groove that you’re stuck in, even if it bears little relationship to what the comic is about. (Well, hoping. Maybe the comic’s about how to integrate a penis into almost every scene, but I would prefer to think it was about relationships.)
And for a comic that’s ostensibly about relationships, you really don’t need it! Relationships are definitely about sex, but they’re not 50% about sex. That’s what I am disliking.. you’ve got these great characters and you’re weighing them down with dopey sex references that seem shallow and purposeless.
P.S. You might be misunderstanding my point (and other anti-sex warriors) if you think I’m\we’re only worried about depictions of sexual acts. It’s the gratuitous and stupid things like “He probably just wants to fuck you!” or “paint a vagina on Mario’s face” that make me feel like you’re desperately trying to prove something to me, to the detriment of the comic.
P.P.S. Disregarding this (I suck cocks) the second comic in your blog seems to have owned me already. Nice work.
May 30th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
“It’s the gratuitous and stupid things like “He probably just wants to fuck you!” or “paint a vagina on Mario’s face” that make me feel like you’re desperately trying to prove something to me, to the detriment of the comic.”
Bjorn said this not Rene!
May 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Suitcase: Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Your second post was a lot more helpful to me than your first.
ps. I wasn’t trying to own you
May 30th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
SuitCase, you’re making a pretty substantial assumption about the artist based on the art, and it’s an assumption that the art doesn’t back up. There is a lot of sex in this comic. That’s true. What there ISN’T is anything to support your idea that this is Ms. Engstrom trying to be edgy and confrontational and nothing more.
It’s pretty clear that sex, relationships and the connection between the two is pretty important to the story that the wonderfully talented Ms. Engstrom is telling here. It’s pretty dickish to show up before she’s done and announce that she’s doing it wrong.
May 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
“Suitcase: Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Your second post was a lot more helpful to me than your first.”
And then here I go getting all mad unnecessarily and trying to take a bullet for Superman. Keep rockin’ Rene.
May 30th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Welcome back Rene!!
Hm. As much of idiots as doctors are, they probably did do a blood test to see if Maria was pregnant, because wouldn’t they want to at least hook her up to an IV for her passing out? They’d have to at least draw some blood to check for dehydration, low blood sugar, etc, especially before taking her in for stitches…. Also, I’ve found most doctors are incompetent and jackasses, and everybody else’s job (mainly nurses) is to cover their asses and get the actual work done, so the doc blurting out that Maria is embarasada is kind of likely, if the doctor was even involved, knew, and/or cared about his patient. At least this doctor has the decency to be embarrassed about it. I speak from limited hospital work experience in America, though, so feel free to ignore this.
I also don’t know about privacy laws in Sweden; wouldn’t the doctor be required to consult with Maria’s parent/guardian or at least with her before revealing her personal information to the entire waiting room? That screams lawsuit (in America anyway, because we are a lawsuit-happy people). And I know her parents fail, but is Johan her official guardian now or something??
May 30th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Genevieve: The doctors must respect the patients privacy by law, she just made a big mistake.
May 30th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
People are so funny about sex. Like sex isn’t a big part of our lives.
If you really think about it sex comes with some of the biggest decisions that we make in our lifetime– to abstain or to have sex, when to have sex, how we have sex, who we have sex with, when we choose to have children, how we parent, who we parent with, how we define families… all circulates around sex.
Sex makes relationships and breaks relationships. People a lot of trouble deciphering what is physical and sexual and what is emotional. Honestly, I don’t think sex is a “driving force” in your comic– sex is just a big part of what a lot of people consider a healthy relationship.
That’s just my two cents about it.
May 30th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
i was going to make a similar point as dan@lardford and joy have already expressed much more eloquently than mine was going to be.
anyway, it’s the year 2oo8 and it strikes me as odd that some people still more or less deny that sex is just something people do. and as it often involves more than one person and as it can have some serious consequences, it is an important aspect in relationships. and there’s nothing edgy and confrontational in talking about it. or depicting it (if it’s not pornographic or something, i won’t go into this…).
anyway, who can name a piece of art (literature or whatever) that is not, in some way or other, about sex?
May 30th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
I love Maria’s use of the word ‘Fuck’.
Certainly illustrates the diversity of the word, doesn’t it?
May 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
“Relationships are definitely about sex, but they’re not 50% about sex.”
you know, i was considering the above, and thinking that you couldn’t possibly be speaking in a way that’s informed by real life experience, but then i realised that you’re right — my relationship with my mother is less than 50% about sex. definitely. good on you, there.
May 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Remember when everyone got on Renee’s case for showing them not use a condom?
Well here it is!!
May 30th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Geez get over yourself. Some books are a lot about sex and some aren’t. Some movies are a lot about sex and some aren’t. Some comics are a lot about sex and some aren’t.
If you don’t like it, why don’t you go read something else more your style instead of telling artists to change their work just because *you* don’t approve. It’s not like there’s no other entertainment for you to choose from.
May 30th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
I thought that doctor was a woman.
May 30th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
“Does Anders know absolutely nothing about her?”
You never really know everything about a person, even people close to you. It would be nice if you were able to, but that doesn’t happen because its dependent on the other person. And it’s not hard to find relationships where people chose to not disclose information about themselves to their partner, for whatever reason. Not saying that it’s right or wrong, just saying that it happens more often than most people would like (or hope) to believe.
May 30th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Yeah, but…there could be so many other causes too. This doctor doesn’t sound very good–in fact, unless he’s given her a preggers test, he sounds very plot-forced to say this JUST to trigger her reaction…especially if these are symptoms of something else and she isn’t pregnant at all.
May 30th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Come on you guys, I don’t have to actually show you Maria peeing on a pregnancy test stick do I? This doctor is a tactless idiot, but she did do her job.
May 30th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Oh haha, it didn’t even occur to me this could be a female doctor. To be fair though, we never see anything below his/her neck and it is a rather androgynous haircut. I feel kind of like a sexist plod for assuming male, though.
Rene you do not need to draw the stick-peeing! People are just being stubborn about accepting that Maria could have been pregnant more than once, I guess.
May 30th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
I gotta say: I love the look on Bjorn’s face in the first panel.
It screams “Oh shit, Johan’s gonna kill me!”
Belated great to see you’re back!! : )
May 30th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Now, someone said the Anders not knowing Maria because he doesn’t know about this thing….I don’t necessarily agree.
I’ve known my boyfriend a long time, and I love him dearly, but there are aspects of my past he’s not going to know about for a long time, because they’re painful to talk about, and they’re not his burden, they’re not something he should have to deal with yet.
Everyone takes things a different way, everyone lets things affect them differently. Some people just don’t like telling ANYONE about certain things, but it’s life.
I love this comic, Rene, amazing. I want to give poor Bjorn a hug, really.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
He’s not even sure if she IS pregnant and is already telling her to abort?
That strikes me as just a bit alarmist. And unethical.
Kick his arse, Maria!
May 30th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Dag I didn’t know the doc was a she…
In my defense: the midwife is male and they both look very similar.
I don’t have a problem with androgyny, but it confuses the hell out of me when I have to use gender-specific pronouns. :C I thought one of my friends was a boy for about a week until I learned her name.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Pay attention people!
Maria is pregnant (in flashback).
1: it’s obvious
2: even if *you* don’t think it’s obvious, Rene *said* so, in the comments.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
This won’t end nicely… (love Björns Bob hund t-shirt)
May 30th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Yay! I just discovered Anders Loves Maria via Overcompensating. I read the whole thing today at work! I love it!
May 30th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Found your comic and am most certainly hooked. Thanks for telling this unique and awesome story. =)
May 31st, 2008 at 2:55 am
Why are people so stupid?
SuitCase’s peeve isn’t about the sex itself! It’s about how sex seems to be squeezed into nearly every page as some sort of tactless reference. Which is depicted here:
“P.S. You might be misunderstanding my point (and other anti-sex warriors) if you think I’m\we’re only worried about depictions of sexual acts. It’s the gratuitous and stupid things like “He probably just wants to fuck you!” or “paint a vagina on Mario’s face” that make me feel like you’re desperately trying to prove something to me, to the detriment of the comic.”
So before you jump to Renee’s supposed “rescue” (Even though she can obviously take care of herself and has been a fantastic sport about it), read the post again! Cripes!
And Amy, that logic absolutely drives me up the wall. “IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT DON’T READ IT”.. so stupid stupid stupid! He doesn’t even want her to change her work! It’s more like “Hey, that’s a silly thing you’re doing.” It’s called an opinion. People have them.
May 31st, 2008 at 4:18 am
Umm. I think the doctor is a guy. You generally don’t call a woman “motherfucker”. Most of the time.
May 31st, 2008 at 4:39 am
Rene said the doc was a lady.
May 31st, 2008 at 4:46 am
uhh… maybe i missed something somewhere back along the line because i’ve been in sketchy internet reception areas… but… at the risk of sounding completely out of the loop… what happened to maria’s first pregnancy??
(PS to suitcase, in case it hasn’t already been mentioned before– i find all the sex references in conversation realistic, as this is how i relate to the comic. the conversations are just like many i’ve had!)
May 31st, 2008 at 5:07 am
ok now after reading more responses, one more question (at the risk of sounding completely out of the loop again)– i know bjorn and maria dated before, but someone said something abuot flashback. is this a flashback? i’m so confused!! Last thing I knew Maria was pregnant with Anders’ baby (and had been for a while) and now all of a sudden people are talking about two pregnancies and flashback… oh well, this is what i get for not keeping up daily.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:13 am
Your strip remains wonderful and unique. Good for you.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:14 am
Dan@Lardfork, sure I’m making an assumption. It’s silly to whine about that - this is a form of art, and I’m interpreting it. Rail on about how it’s presumptuous for me to have the impression sex is being awkwardly forced into the comic all you like, but try to realise that I’m solely offering _my_ opinion and interpretation of it. You, by saying that “sex, relationships and the connection between the two is pretty important to the story”, are doing the exact same thing - just less controversially. If you want to challenge what I have to say, maybe explain how you feel the sex is justified
Joy, Ashley, I agree that sex is definitely a big part of every sexual relationship (well duh), and I think a comic like this benefits from its inclusion. Couples definitely talk during sex and talk about sex. It’s a great way to develop certain aspects of the characters and story, and it can genuinely be edgy and confronting in a pleasing way. My problem is that whenever I look over to see the latest page my girlfriend has up on her laptop, I run through a mental checklist of “naked person”, “sexual act” or “reference to fucking” and seemingly always come up with at least one or two. At this point it becomes grating to me, as it’s unrealistic, predictable, and kinda stupid — I’m a testosterone-driven male, and even I spend 99% of my time completely withdrawn from a vagina or anus. These characters live oddly different lives!
Anyway, I hope the critics of this aspect of this comic might have a little effect on you, Rene. I know it’s pre-planned and everything, but as a lot of the sex references seem ancillary to the main story, maybe our collective rolling eyes might help the next conversation occur in a park or street instead of a bedroom. It’d be better for the comic, because while the fawning fans don’t seem to mind, others recognise it as something that’s becoming detrimental to the rest of the work.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:26 am
SuitCase: I’ve been thinking a little about what you said. Sex is, and will continue to be a driving force behind the story. It always has been, and it always will. If it comes across then I see this as a success on my part because it is one of the things I’m trying to achieve. We are, after all, biological creatures driven by animal urges and it’s foolish to pretend otherwise.
However, I am concerned that my dialogue is coming off as forced, and seeing as how my English is suffering, I’m sure the slang can come off as unnatural. I hope to get better at this. This could be a jarring moment in the comic and make things come off as awkward. This bugs me because I myself can’t hear it.
Hopefully when Anders Loves Maria is done as a book I will have help with the language part.
Anyways, thanks again for your input.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:33 am
Tell your girl we all hope she gets better soon!
May 31st, 2008 at 6:02 pm
SuitCase:
You have invented a false dichotomy between “fawning fans” and people who agree with you.
Also, what is the meaning of “our collective rolling eyes”, specifically the “our” bit? Have you spoken with this collective of people who agree with you, or are they another invention?
Also also, regarding this thing you said…
I originally viewed it as your tokenistic way of saying “Hey look guys I am fearless and edgy and can draw my characters banging”…
Well, you read it wrong. You’ve based your criticisms of the strip on an assumption that was incorrect.
Has it occurred to you that you are not as open-minded as you think you are?
May 31st, 2008 at 6:08 pm
“…but as a lot of the sex references seem ancillary to the main story, maybe our collective rolling eyes might help the next conversation occur in a park or street instead of a bedroom. It’d be better for the comic, because while the fawning fans don’t seem to mind, others recognise it as something that’s becoming detrimental to the rest of the work.”
SuitCase, are you completely batty! who do you think you are! whose comic is this? who is the author? whose brain created these characters, this story? who, other than you (and a couple tossers on YWiB, who are probably also you) is rolling their eyes?! i think you’ve lost touch with reality, mate. you are 1) out of line, and 2) a pain in the arse.
justify the sex, shall i? okay, here it goes: a webcomic is a form of art. the content and the tone of the work needs no justification, and is entirely the jurisdiction of the artist, and not at all of the consumer. no matter how persistently wanky the consumer, SuitCase. no amount of tireless, limpdicked wankery can change that fact, although goodness me, you sure do try. i understand that you, well-intentioned, have developed this belief that rene is misguided, the poor thing, in including so much prurient material in her comic, and good heavens, you just want her to succeed at making wholesome, sensible art — but you’re a ridiculous nutter. so.
rene is being diplomatic towards you, which is admirable, but i am choosing to speak my mind: you are BIZARRE, and your impression that you can exercise some kind of creative influence over rene’s work is megalomaniacal and offensive. go away.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:03 pm
i think someone needs to say this, so i’ll do it.
i like sex.
i like having sex, i like talking about sex, i like reading about sex, i like reading comics about sex, i like reading comics about people talking about sex, i like reading comics about people having sex….. it’s pretty ordinary, i’d say, and quite common. even among girls, i am one, i should know. i also know that some people are not interested in sex at all. which is fine with me.
i’m not interested in horror-films. i don’t watch them. i don’t go about telling other people they shouldn’t watch horror-films, and especially telling them they shouldn’t make horror-films. or use less fake blood and axes. suitcase, bugger off and offer some of your constructive criticism to the people on you-porn. it’ll be appreciated.
(just for reference, i don’t want to come over completely one-sided: i like loads and loads of other stuff, too. spaghetti, for example, nasturtiums, rock-music and sunny weather.)
May 31st, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Rene, don’t listen to the haters! Also your English is just fine.
Also, how do people keep getting confused about the past-or-presentness of the recent strips? Maria’s hair is long and brown. Björn actually *has* a lot of hair. The last time that happened was during the Christmas ‘95 flashback strips, yo. So this must be like 1998 or something if Maria’s submitting portfolios for universities.
Suitcase: I can completely understand someone feeling uncomfortable and complaining about all the sex in the comic during a segment like say, Anders and Tina’s borking pages. That was like a good solid week of nudity and sexin’. But I can’t help but feel that it’s a bit silly to complain about all the sexiness during a stretch of pages where everyone has been clothed for like a whole week. It’s like you’re stretching for something to get offended by. Björn saying Maria should paint a vagina over Mario’s mouth isn’t supposed to be “edgy,” that is something a guy like Björn would think is funny. That’s the character being himself, not the author trying to force sexual references to be confrontational like you seem to believe.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:17 pm
oh just to get this clear.
i’m not trying to “rescue” renee i don’t see no reason to do this.
i’m making a point. it’s called an opinion.
and if i do the mental checklist thing (”naked person”, “sexual act”, “reference to fucking”) on any given day of my adult life, i can tick at least two items. at this point the comic becomes awfully realistic to me.
ahem. now i’ll go figure out how to spend 99% of the day completely withdrawn from an anus when there’s one right down at the bottom of my back. it just won’t go away…
May 31st, 2008 at 8:21 pm
You have to also put into consideration that kids these ages put sex in EVERYTHING. ANYWAYS. I’m 23 years old and i still make sexual innuendo jokes 90 percent of my day. Its just how sexually active people are sometimes. (and people who aren’t sexually active :[)
Also, i’m new to commenting and to A
May 31st, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Pages of argument over the opinion of a comic I’ve never heard of. Call me when Penny Arcade, PVP, or anyone else with millions of viewers makes an opinion, because until then I don’t see the need to argue that Anders Loves Maria is a glorious webcomic — it’s fairly obvious.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Taeshi: That kind of logic drives you up the wall? “If you don’t like it don’t do it” is pretty sound logic that applies to pretty much everything people partake of for entertainment: TV, movies, webcomics, hobbies, food, etc. Clearly you’re just pissed off. Well, I get pissed off when I perceive people trying to change artists work just because there’s something about it they don’t like, and they feel entitled to have it be the way they want. Maybe that’s not what SuitCase meant, but it certainly came across that way to me and others. The only one entitled to have A
June 1st, 2008 at 7:06 am
EEK! Okay, I really do love the comic…. some of your fans are really scary though
I don’t think it was forced…. but that’s just me.
June 1st, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Girls get called motherfuckers often enough, it’s just a swear word adjective thing.
also, your English is fine. Maria sounds like a true blue Aussie to me actually. So maybe she is speaking australian.
June 1st, 2008 at 10:57 pm
internet threads are a microcosm of human peevishness.
XD
And Rene, I’ve had no trouble at all with your english.
(not knowing any Australians, blue or otherwise, I can’t comment on Maria’s possible Aussie-ness ;D )
June 1st, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Kate: And I’ve never been to Australia so that would be weird. I was born in Canada though, so maybe that’s it.
June 2nd, 2008 at 12:38 am
This feels ripped straight from “Juno.”
June 2nd, 2008 at 3:22 am
Huh, my opinion of Maria keeps dropping… She seems to be so susceptible to her emotions of the moment that she often forgets to stop for a second before shooting her mouth off.
it’s usually not in the best interest of the baby to raise it as a teen mom. not saying obliterating it is better, but maria really shouldn’t raise the baby.
(at least we know she won’t!)
June 2nd, 2008 at 3:27 am
I just found this comic a few days ago so I wouldn’t say I’m a fawning fan, being so new to the story. The conversations in this comic seem pretty normal to me, like the conversations I have normally. It’s weird to me that people see it as forced, but I can see what they mean. I’m a young’n so I guess I’m part of the sex-obsessed generation, but at least this comic’s seemed pretty spot-on because of it. =)
June 2nd, 2008 at 6:14 am
Oh my goodness you guys CALM DOWN. Rene is handling SuitCase’s comments and SuitCase is being perfectly polite to her. If he/she (I’m sorry, the name’s kind of ambiguous) were insulting her personally or being inflammatory about the comment, I’d be worried. But he/she is not, so I’m not.
Rene, kudos to you for handling the criticism so well. It’s a mark of a good artist and writer that you can keep your cool in this way.
Love the comic.
June 2nd, 2008 at 6:15 am
*Addendum to previous post: being inflammatory about the COMIC, not comment
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:48 am
true blue = genuine
probably because im Australian i hear her talking like an Aussie, but it sounds cool.
come visit OZ, we are friendly and don’t bite. In fact the people here are like, the only non-venomous things.
June 3rd, 2008 at 9:34 am
Kiersi: It’s true. Nothing else except for Juno is allowed to include teen pregnancy in the plot.
June 3rd, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Sorry for the wall of text, but what can you do when a billion people address you?
Rene, it’s obviously a fine line you have to tread, so I can forgive the comic for that. I don’t know if it’s altogether to do with slang, but I know that even I’d have trouble writing a script for the comic that’d satisfy me. In terms of general storytelling, that is, not simply dialogue changes. Clearly sex needs to be part of the comic, I just think you should be extra cautious of coming off as pretentious or overbearing in using it, because I feel you’re veering in that direction.
Patrick, you’re kinda boring and Alex, you’re kinda presumptuous. Don’t worry, my comments aren’t decrees that Rene must now follow. They are, um, my comments. Written in the spirit of healthy critique and friendly encouragement.
Holly, I can see what you mean and it seems I’ve been subject to more unfortunate coincidences than I originally guessed (the anecdote about me always seeing some goofy sex reference when I see my girlfriend looking at the latest strip is true, but it seems only about a third or so of the last 50 comics are like that.) But you’ve mistaken my concerns if you think that I apply this universal idea of “the author is trying to be edgy!!” to every sex reference in the comic. I said that was what I used to assume. Also, I was making an observation about wider trends in the comic, rather than pointing at sexual references like the Mario painting that work fine in isolation. (P.S. What’s wrong with listening to the “haters”? Even if I thought the comic was awful, isn’t it valuable for an artist to have that kind of feedback for their own self improvement? If you were being entirely literal in saying that, you’re weird.)
“not even a hippy”, you’re totally begging for me to make some hilarious comment about how the only reason you’re in your own anus is due to the location of your head, right? Ah ha ha ha.
Cherie and Kiersi, funnily enough earlier in this thread I felt like pointing to Juno as an interesting example of a story that overloads on bizarrely exaggerated characters but pulls it off without being annoying (to faux-hipsters like me, at least) but I didn’t want to get too long winded. For whatever reason I didn’t think of the pregnancy angle, though, haha.
berga, don’t lie about us being friendly. I’m in Sydney, and you can clearly see that I will probably crush Rene on sight based on my the hatred and rage her comic inspires in me. Australia is not safe at all.
June 3rd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Amy: I just think it’s stupid and a backwards way to confront a problem. “Oh, I don’t feel that comfortable with this comic, I better just pack my bags and go!”
I agree with SuitCase about the sex, but I still really like the comic, so I stay and enjoy myself. Regardless, no comic is perfect. There will usually be peeves. But that shouldn’t mean people shouldn’t stand up and say anything. SuitCase can say whatever he wants, and it’s Rene’s choice to take up the suggestions or ignore it. That’s totally fine. But telling the person to just “go do something else they like” is retarded and defeatist.
June 3rd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
I am, afterwards, the girlfriend he peers over when I obsessively refresh this comic “:-[” (Ohhhhh plot twist)
June 3rd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
AFTER ALL* Christ I suck. Into the gutter I go.
June 3rd, 2008 at 5:54 pm
I disagree with SuitCase on a number of points, but I gotta give a nod to his demeanor in presenting his arguments. This is all too rare on the Internet.
That having been said, omgwtfbbq u suxx0rz. pwned!
No, wait… I mean - I don’t think Rene is veering towards any sort of pretension in the use of sex in this comic. Simply put - what sex she has portrayed here has happened for a reason, either as a back story or to actually move the plot forward. None of the portrayals have been so out of place as to seem like Rene is saying “I’ve got no idea how to work these details out so I’ll just put some fucking in”, nor has she attempted to justify its use through some empty blather about the beauty of the human form or rescuing the sexual act from pornography or other similar skitsnack.
June 4th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Agreed, Olentzero. While Suitcase’s take on the strip has some vocal opponents, he’s for the most part maintained level-headed, reasoned arguments, without letting the nets combination of anonymity and large audience tempt him into showboating by making his critiques and responses unnecessarily harsh.
As far as using nudity and sex for the ‘edgy, look what I have the guts to do’ factor, I had a similar reaction watching high school kids at open-mic poetry readings. Poems often had ‘fuck’ in them for artistic reasons. Not reasons of rhyme, rhythm or authenticity, but more for the ‘performance art’ aspect of getting up in front of a fairly genteel crowd and daring to say it into an amplified microphone. But I’m not getting that vibe with ALM.
From a stylistic standpoint, in a strip that has continuity from day to day, if it gets to be so its all about the boinking (or even gets where it is perceived that way), its important to have feedback like Suitcase gives so the artist can at least weigh and consider it (as it seems Rene is admirably willing to do).
Sometimes there’s a reason for, say, all the car chases and explosions in a movie to happen in the first 5 minutes, and it’s part of the overall vision, has a strong purpose, and the tale can be told no other way. But sometimes, when asked if that sensory barrage might leave the viewer confused and overwhelmed, an artist realizes that, perhaps by inserting a love scene between two of the explosions, and leaving a little to the imagination, the impact of all three events might be heightened.
So, having just read the entire run from end to end in one setting, I do agree that the number of strips involving people making flippy-floppy does seem to have increased a fair bit. But the standout characteristic for me has been the almost Memento-like way my perception of who these characters are, what their motivation is, and what’s about to happen has changed from strip to strip, sometimes from panel to panel, and their sexual choices and behavior have certainly been an integral part in portraying those changes.
(And incidentally, the comment about vagina-mouth on the Mario painting was spot-on…popular icon plus sexually-charged imagery equalling automatic avant-garde remains a pillar of the art-school experience, 40 years after Warhol got bored with it.)
June 4th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Aargh. For what it’s worth, my last post got cut off. Yeah, it started off kind of angry, but was meant to end like this:
The only one who is entitled to have this comic be the way they want it to be is Rene, the author.
Rene, if you feel that you should change your comic to include less sex, then feel free. But there is nothing *wrong* with your comic the way it is.
June 5th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Obviously, this is Rene’s domain, and it is her unique vision and the skill with which she’s brought it to life that brings us here in the first place, and makes us care enough to comment.
Saying, “I love the relationship between the characters, the art style, and everything! Don’t ever change it!” or “I think its a good comic that could be even better if you changed X, Y and Z.” both express the idea that “I have been touched by your work, and now have hopes for its future.” (And both those hopes can be equally stultifying and contrary to the artists wishes or the good of the storyline.)
Always yes or always no = always bad. And besides, all the twists that have made this so engaging have been major disturbances of the status quo. Few things help you organize and find the truth of your ideas like trying to explain them to someone else. If you say, “Just go ahead and do whatever it is you were going to do anyway,” you’ve been very careful not to take anything away from the artist, but you haven’t given them anything they can use, either. And seeing how your work is received and interpreted by people who are filtering what they see through their various backgrounds, and their preconceptions of what a thing should be (or seems to them like it’s trying to be) I would think is half the fun.
(And for what it’s worth, I wandered in here from Lore’s place and became an instant fn. Great stuff, Rene.)
June 5th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I’m very impressed by Withing, and I can’t help but agree with Olentzero (somewhat.)
I don’t think the problems are severe enough to damn the comic, but for people coming to the comic with certain preconceptions and inclinations to see rampant sex as something that you have to really justify (i.e. me) they can be something of an issue. Either Rene can choose to push on in the way she has been and disregard people thinking like me, or she can do the “rebalancing” I’m suggesting - either is her choice, but I think it’s best to be informed about the sort of reactions your readers are having even if it’s a critical one.
June 5th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
That having been said, Rene as the artist is really under no obligation to justify the sexual content of this strip to anyone except herself. Kudos to her for taking the time to respond to it (she’s got Principles One, Six, and Seven down nicely here - read ‘em at http://filthspigot.livejournal.com/12100.html ) but I would hardly blame her if she had also said (nicely) “This is my comic and I will write it as I please, thanks for writing!”
June 6th, 2008 at 2:45 am
@Cherie: I just mean the presumptuous doctor woman–see the scene where she is getting an ultrasound.
June 8th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
@ berga: I knew what you meant by ‘true-blue.’ As my grampy would say, I was just ‘making a funny.’ ;D Sorry for being unclear.